Saturday 21st November

Betfair Exchange £5 FB 3pm Haydock (hit claim)

£5 FB Bristol De Mai @4.2 (price as of 22:36 Fri)

No point backing the favourite here at short odds so gone with the biggest price of the three with realistic chances.


Skybet MBS Race 13:50 Haydock

£5 Umbrigado @ 7.0


Skybet Price Boost, Newcastle v Chelsea 12:30

£10 Werner 1+ shot on target @ Evens

Werner averages a shot on target every 74mins this season


Skybet Bet and Get Tottenham v Man City (opt in required)

Qualifier: back and lay Man City https://nimb.ws/WZuMhX

FreeBet

Ligue 1, Lille v Lorient (Sunday)
Lorient or Draw @ 2.25
La Liga, Sevilla v Celta (17:30)
Sevilla @ 1.70
La Liga, Atletico v Barcelona (20:00)
Atletico or Draw @ 1.44

£5 FB Treble @ 5.52


Betfred £5 Risk Free Pick Your Punt – Premier League

£5 Aston Villa to win and Watkins to score @ 2/1 (via bet builder)


Betfred £5 Refund (from Friday offer)

£5 FB Double @ 4.3
Charlton @ 2.15 (13:00 League One)
Ipswich @ 2.0 (15:00 League One)


Betfair Sportsbook Bet £10 get £10

Qualifier

Newcastle v Chelsea 12:30
£10 Chelsea + BTTS Yes @ 2.83 via Same Game Multi
laying off @ 3.45 Smarkets: https://nimb.ws/3ZW6s7

 

FreeBet Advice

Sunday/Monday


Boylesports £10 Risk Free Tottenham v Man City 17:30 kick off (Mobile only)

£10 Tottenham @ 14/5 – via mobile

I think Man City are worth taking on at these odds and the no-lose bet gives us a good opportunity to do so.
City are still ranked as one of the very best in Europe however they have failed to win 6 of their 15 PL way games in 2020, one of those was at Spurs where they played well in a 2-0 defeat, Spurs were without Kane that day and look stronger now, whilst City may be without Aguero and Sterling who have only returned to training this week from injuries.


Unibet Bet £10 get £5 x 5

Check your account for the following under FREEBETS & UNIBOOSTS

As I’m running out of time I will post these on Twitter as I do them, along with the FB Advice. (then update below)

Darts
The only qualifier on the Darts is Gary Anderson @ 3.5 / 4.4 which makes it a bit expensive over £2 so will leave that.
**update Gary Anderson price now worth doing @ 3.5 /4.2 as qualifer for £5Fb with unibet nimb.ws/JOmKxu**
FreeBet
Smith, Michael – Cross, Rob 19:10
Leg Handicap, £5 FB Smith, Michael -4.5 @3.80

Smith has been smashing opponents so far with averages of 102,102 & 106 conceding just 5 legs in three first to five matches.

Football bet £10 get £5 inplay x 4
The football qualifiers will need to be bet builders that work out over 3.0, so will check out the match odds and both teams to score lay odds on Smarkets for each match looking for close matches.

Newcastle v Chelsea 12:30
Qualifier: Chelsea and BTTS Yes @ 3.05 /3.6 worthwhile qualifier for Unibet £5 FB offer on the 12:30 kick off: nimb.ws/mwUZE2 FB pick to follow
FreeBet: Draw/Draw @ 7.0
could be slow start given amount of players that have been away and Chelsea only scored two first-half away goals in four.

Aston Villa v Brighton 15:00
Qualifier:
Aston Villa and BTTS Yes @ 4.0 / 4.6 qualifier for unibet FB: nimb.ws/XkxtRL
FreeBet: (adv @ HT FreeBet with Unibet gone on Brighton 2-0 @ 7.5)

Tottenham v City 17:30
Qualifier:
FreeBet: 

Man Utd v West Brom 20:00
Qualifier:
FreeBet: 

Friday 20th November

Paddypower MBS Race 14:40 Ascot

£5 Rosie And Millie @ 8.0

(Paddypower also have money back offers on the ATP Tennis finals this afternoon but I am giving these a swerve)


Paddypower Power Prices

Featured Power Price

£5 Man City, Aston Villa & Brentford all to win @ 9.0

Racing Post NAP treble

£5 Everton, Charlton & Real Sociedad all to win @ 8.5

All of the boosts seem to have Villa and Brentford in, more on those later but I’ve taken these two which are certainly value.


Betfred £5 Risk Free Pick Your Punt Coventry v Birmingham 19:45

£5 BTTS Yes & Birmingham over 1.5 Team Goals @ 9/4

Coventry have conceded 2+ goals in 9 of 11 games this season, whilst Birmingham have one clean sheet in nine.


Betfred £10 Free Bet (From midweek Darts FB Club)

Stevenage v Bolton
Bolton @17/10

Fulham v Everton
Everton @ 17/20

Bolton haven’t had the best of starts in the bottom tier but can kick on now with players returning from injuries and against a Stevenage side that has scored only two goals in 9 games the price looks attractive.
Fulham are looking every bit a bottom three side whilst Everton, with Richarlison back look too strong. They lost all three games he was suspended for but had won four our of five before that.

£10 FB double @ 4.99


Pokerstarts Requestabet Friday – opt in via challenges window

Qualifiers:
Bayern Munich – Werder Bremen
21 Nov, 14:30 GMT
£5 Request a bet Bayern Munich to score over 0.5 goals in each half @ 1.33

Hertha BSC Berlin – Borussia Dortmund
21 Nov, 19:30 GMT
£5 Request a bet  Over 0.5 Goals in Each Half @ 1.47

FreeBet Advice:
Bolton/Everton Double as above @ 5.13


Betfred £5 FB (refund from pick your punt midweek)

Aston Villa v Brighton

£5FB  Ollie Watkins FGS @ 9/2

Those reading last week will have seen I’m cautiously optimistic about Villa’s chances this season having been totally the opposite pre season. Those pre season worries remain with players outsdie the starting eleven being someway off the level of the likes of Grealish, Barkley, Watkins, Mings and McGinn. Perhaps the goalkeeper is the only position they have covered in depth now with Tom Heaton a more than capable understudy or no1.  At the moment with the first choice players all firing and on form the only significant worry is having them all come back injury and covid free from the international break. Watkins is one player who should be fully rested. With him having scored six alrady, and with his expected goals figure amounting to about 40% of Villa’s total Xg, the 9/2 about first goalscorer looks Ok.


Skybet

Soccer Saturday Priceboost

£5 Aston Villa, Brentford & Watford all to win @ 9/1

This will put us up to £10 total on the Villa/Brentford double needing just City or Watford to win to land one of the trebles.
WillHill also have Aston Villa, Brentford & Swansea @ 7/1 (max £5) which if you can get on and don’t mind the risk, is certainly another very good bet.


 

Saturday 14th November

Paddypower Enhanced Prices

Racing Post NAP
£5 Sunderland, Cambridge and Exeter all to win @ 12.0

Featured Power Price
£5 Portugal, Spain & Germany to Win @ 8.50

There’s a bit of value in both of these, wouldn’t want to get carried away with them but certainly an involvement.


Skybet MBS 13:40 Cheltenham

£10 Gumball @ 13/2


Boylesports £10 Refund

Wales v Ireland 5pm Sunday

£10 FB Wales to win to nil @ 15/8

Ireland haven’t scored a goal in five games now and looked to offer very little in the final 3rd against England. Ireland also failed to score in both of their last two UNL matches against Wales.
The Welsh aren’t exactly prolific themselves, however they have at least found the net in four of their last 5 home games and look sharper up front with Bale, Brookes, Wilson & Moore.


Skybet £2 FB (from Golf offer)

I’ll have a little bit of cover on the 0-0 result in the above game with this FB
Wales v Ireland
£2 FB 0-0 correct score @ 7.0
(under boosts for the game)


Betfred £5 FB (refund from pickyourpunt)

Slovakia v Scotland

£5 FB 0-0 correct score @ 8/1 

Both of these sides will be on a high after qualifying for the Euros and will likely be a touch jaded having played extra time midweek. This will be a comedown for both sides and they could serve up something of a drab affair, both are better at the back than going forward and Slovakia failed to create much in a recent 0-0 with Ireland.

Thursday 12th November

Paddypower Featured Power Price

£10 Rory McIlroy to finish in the top 5 in the US Masters @ 5.5

This is best priced at about 4.3 elsewhere so looks worth being on.


Paddypower MBS Race 13:50 Clonmel

£10 Westerner Point @ 4.2 (boosted to 4.33)

 


Skybet MBS Race 13:50 Clonmel

£5 Sweet Sting @ 6/1

 


Betfred £5 Risk Free Pick Your Punt – Eng v Ire

As I outlined below I don’t think there’s much value with England here.
so for this offer I’m going with:

£5 Draw and Under 2.5 goals @ 7/2 (via bet builder)
Although there is a class gap, it remains to be seen how motivated players will be for this and England haven’t beaten Ireland since 1980, drawing the last five meetings.


Betfred £5 FB 

Wales v USA – Int Friendly 19:45
£5 FB Wales and BTTS No @ 3/1 (match result and both teams to score odds are better than in the “win to nil” market)

Wales have won five of their last 7 “to nil” and are playing an inexperienced US side.


Boylesports £10 Risk-Free, England v Ireland, Mobile offer

£10 England to win and BTTS @ 11/4

Ireland haven’t scored in four games and look outmatched against England so the prices on England win and Win to Nil are very short.
whilst that might be the most likeliest result, in terms of value it could pay to back the Irish to find the net.
They have at least won the shot count in each of their last three.


Unibet Bet £10 get £5 Golf

check you’ve got this offer listed under “FREEBETS & UNIBOOSTS”

Qualifier back Rory McIlroy to finish top 5 @ 4.35 for £1-0 laying on Betfair @ 4.6:

https://nimb.ws/08sEX6

Or 4.8 Smarkets: https://nimb.ws/1fAVrg

FreeBet Advice

To follow after settlement


 

Thursday 5th November

 

Betfred Bet £10 get £5 – IPL

Qualifier

Mumbai Indians v Delhi Capitals 14:00
Back Mumbai for £10 with Betfred laying off with Smarkets as shown: https://nimb.ws/1Eigxv

Free Bet advice

Friday


Betfred Europa League Risk Free Bet Builder

Qualifier
Benfica – Rangers 17:55
via pick your punt builder:
£5 Rangers and BTTS No @ 9/2

Going to take a chance with Rangers here who are clearly on an upward curve and could be underrated by the markets here.
Rangers have 11 clean sheets in 13 Scottish Prem matches, and have conceded just one goal in 5 EL matches this season. They also won 1-0 on their last trip to Portugal in February when similarly priced against Braga.


Skybet MBS Race 14:30 Newbury 2/3

£7.50 Dolphin Square @ 7.0


Novibet £10 FB

Arsenal and Under 3.5 @ 2.25
Granada @ 1.9 (17:55)

£10 FB double @ 4.28

Arsenal should be too good for Molde this evening but they are unlikely to go goal crazy, as was the case against Dundalk who kept the score to a respectable 3-0. Granada are a decent away side, losing only 1 of their last 13 away trips in all competitions beating Malmo and PSV in Europe this season and look a fair price to carry on that run against the Cypriot champions.


Paddypower 

Enhanced Power Price:
£10 Arsenal, Leicester, Celtic & AC Milan all to win @ 6/1

Saturday 31st Oct

Paddypower MBS Race 13:20 Ascot 2/3/4

£5 Smarty Wild @ 8.0

Cash-out yesterday’s £10 Racing Refund, I’ve done so on the 13:42 as shown: https://nimb.ws/r6CgsP


Paddypower £5 FB Liverpool v West Ham (17:30)

Hit claim to get this one via the banner.

#WhatOddsPaddy – Up to 9/1
£5 FB Liverpool to win 2-1 or 3-1 @ 4.50

Liverpool won 7 of their 19 home games last season by one of these scorelines, and 2 of 3 so far this season. Antonio is a big loss for West Ham but Liverpool are having to have a real defensive reshuffle and have one clean sheet in six so far.


Paddypower – Featured Power Price

£4 Chelsea, Bournemouth & Brentford all to win @ 6.5

We’ve already got £8 on Chelsea and Bournemouth with the Skybet Treble so I’m keeping stakes small but this one actually looks better value, so if you didn’t do the Skybet offer, maybe stake £10 on this one.


Skybet MBS Race 13:20 Ascot 2/3

£5 Dr Sanderson @ 6.0


Betfred Bet £10 get £5, Wales v Scotland (Rugby Union 14:15)

Qualifier

Back Wales -7.5 @ 21/20 for £10 @ Betfred, then lay Wales -7.50 on Betfair @ 2.3 see: https://nimb.ws/Msaop0

FreeBet: (should be credited just before 20:05)

France v Ireland 20:05
(This is a fairly arbitrary pick but games between these have been typically close)
£5 FB France to win by 1-5pts @ 6/1


Betfred £5 FB (If Salah scores)

Qualifier:

I’ve done this one a slightly different way:
Back BTTS Yes @ 2.38 with Betfred, then back BTTS No @ 1.64 Smarkets for 14.63.
That costs about 83p give or take:  https://nimb.ws/dDLjy4

FreeBet
Sunday (If Salah Scores, which he is about a 3/4 chance to do so)


Betfred £5 FB (refund from Friday Pick Your Punt)

Osasuna v Atletico Madrid (17:30)
Match Result and BTTS
Atletico and No @ 15/8

Fc Nantes v PSG
Match Result and BTTS
PSG and No @ 15/8

£5 FB double @ 7.26/1

PSG have 6 clean sheets in 8 and won four of the last 6 H2H “to nil”. Atleti have conceded 1 goal in five league matches. Osasuna have not scored against Atleti in the last five head to heads.


Betfair Sportsbook Bet £10 get £10

Qualifier:
£10 Chelsea to win and Both Teams to score (@ 1.6 & 1.83 via Same Game multi) @ 3.04

Laying the Chelsea/Yes result on the winner and both to score market on markets for £7.98 : https://nimb.ws/9Pfqg2
You might be able to get matched at lower than 3.7 but wither way, £2 for a £10 FB is acceptable.

FreeBet Advice:
Sunday/Monday


 

Friday 30th October

Betfred Pick Your Punt Wolves v Palace


Total goals – under 1.5 (1st half)
Result – wolves win (2nd half)
£5 @ 2/1 via pick your punt builder

Wolves have only scored 2 first half goals so far this season and Palace have only conceded 2.
Palace can throw up the odd surprise result but I don’t see NES and Wolves allowing them the same freedom on the counter that Man Utd did and I don’t see an open game here.
Palace had 10 shots on target against Fulham but previously against Everton, Chelsea and Brighton they managed just 2 across three games.


Paddypower MBS 2/3/4 13:45 Newmarket

£10 Mishal Star @ 4.5 (used power up to 5.0)


Pokerstars Requestabet Friday’s (Opt in required)

Qualfiers

Burnley – Chelsea 15:00 Sat
Request a Bet
£5 Chelsea to score over 0.5 goals in each half@ 2.00

Liverpool – West Ham 17:30 Sat
Request a Bet
£5 Liverpool to win and Over 1.5 Goals@ 1.47

FreeBet

Liverpool v West Ham 17:30 Sat
Liverpool and BTTS @ 2.50

Tottenham v Brighton 19:15 Sun
Tottenham and BTTS @ 3.10

£5 FB double @ 7.75


Paddypower Featured Power Price

Raul Jimenez to have 1 or more shots on target
£15 @ Evens

Interesting to see Paddys now offering the same kind of boosts as Skybet. This would have paid out in 6 of his 8 starts this season.


Paddypower Enhanced Treble – kicks off Friday 19:30

Racing Post NAP “This Will Not Be Beaten”
£5 Hull, Port Vale, and Stuttgart to win @ 8.5


Skybet Priceboosts

Sheff Utd v Man City
£10 Sterling to have 1+ shot on target @ Evens

This one would have paid in 9 of 11 this season for Stirling.

Soccer Sat Price Boost

£4 Chelsea, Bournemouth & Barnsely to win @ 10/1
£4 Chelsea and Bournemouth to win and Watford to draw with Barnsley @ 10/1

I don’t see much wrong with Chelsea and Bournemouth but in the Championship there’s a sense that Watford and Barnsley are in false positions based on performances so far, with expected goals putting Barnsley in the top half and Watford in the bottom half. Of course Watford could start playing better, and probably will at some point but opposing them makes more sense for now.


Betfred £5 FB (Refund from Thurs pick your punt)

Fulham v WBA Draw @ 12/5
Leeds v Leicester Draw @ 13/5
Man Utd v Arsenal Draw @ 13/5
£1.25 FB  Trixie (£5 staked)

All three of these look like they could be tactical battles with teams sitting deep, perhaps low on goals and the draw is a big runner.
With this bet we need two to produce a profit, all three means a big win.


Paddypower £10 FB (outstanding Acca refund)

Celtic v Aberdeen Sunday 14:30 (Scottish Cup)
Celtic to win and BTTS @ 3.75

Celtic gifted Aberdeen 2 penalties and a third goal from a defensive mistake in last weeks 3-3 thriller.
Aberdeen are playing well enough to get on the scoresheet again but a Celtic win looks the most likely result with Celtic winning the five previous head to heads prior to that game.

 

Saturday 24th October

There’s quite a wealth of worthwhile offers today, all detailed below, I will update this post as I go so hit refresh to update, I should have it all done before first match kicks off at  12.30

Betfair Bet £10 get £10

Qualifier

Wolves v Newcastle
Under 3.5 Goals – Over/Under 3.5 Goals
Wolves – Match Odds
£10.00 Double @2.14 via Sam e game multi tab

12 of Wolves 15 wins last season were under 3.5 and all three of their wins this season have been under 2.5.

FreeBet Advice
Monday


Betfred £5 Refund

Millwall v Barnsley (Championship 15:00)
Millwall @ 2.05
Doncaster v Crewe (League One 15:00)
Doncaster @ 1.95
Lazio v Bologna (Serie A 19:45)
Lazio @ 1.62

£5 FB Treble @ 6.48


Betfred Bet £10 inplay get £5

Qualifier
Will tweet example, suggest any match today at HT, West Ham v City HT will be about 1:15pm
Freebet:
Sunday


Betfred £5 Risk Free -UFC

Going to swerve this one, as odds don’t look very good.


Skybet Bet £5 get £5 inplay offer (opt in required)
Man Utd v Chelsea 17:30

Qualifier
Suggest backing over 2.5 at kick off (assuming its still over 1.50) laying on Smarkets.
FreeBet
will tweet my pick at HT


Skybet MBS Race

13:45 Doncaster
£10 Just Frank @ 5/2


Skybet £4 FB (from Golf Offer)
As the Betfred Treble above

Millwall v Barnsley (Championship 15:00)
Millwall @ 2.00
Doncaster v Crewe (League One 15:00)
Doncaster @ 1.91
Lazio v Bologna (Serie A 19:45)
Lazio @ 1.67

£5 FB Treble @ 6.38


Paddypower MBS Race

£5 Wrenthorpe @ 7.50


Paddypower Power Prices
Turbo Power Price –
£5 Crystal Palace, Norwich and Barcelona all to win @ 9.0

This one is best priced at about 7.5 with the bookies and looks worth being with to small stakes.


Boylesports £10 Risk Free (mobile only)


£10 Man Utd v Chelsea Draw and BTTS @ 4.0 (place via mobile device)
This is a bit of saver having backed Utd and BTTS on the Pokerstars offer.
Goals look assured with Chelsea having just one clean sheet in 21 PL aways. And both teams have scored in all five of Utd’s matches this season (excluding EFL Cup)

(Both are priced at 4.0 with Boyles so its a toss up between the two if you’re not doing the Pokerstars bet.)


Pokerstars Risk Free £20 – Man Utd v Chelsea
(check your account for this one)

After clicking opt in – I’ve got the £20 as below

Qualifier:
£20 on Man Utd and BTTS  @ 4.20 (no lay)

Although both these sides have been inconsistent, Utd do seem to have gotten their swagger back of late and Chelsea have conceded 42 goals in 21 PL away matches under Lampard, they’ve conceded 3 against Southampton and West Brom already this season. Utd to win and both teams to score looks a decent option.


Unibet Bet £10 get £5


Man Utd v Chelsea 17:30
Qualifier
bit expensive this one but its still worthwhile.
If you wait until later you might get a closer match.
£10 draw and BTTS via bet builder @ 4.0, laying 4.9 Smarkets: https://nimb.ws/bqaXoh

FreeBet:
TBA

Friday 23rd October

A good defensive display from Rangers scuppered our treble last night, so for the 2nd time this week we were one short.
Plenty more to go at this weekend.

From yesterday:
Skybet £7 Freebet from Golf Offer
Villa v Leeds 20:00
£7 FB Correct score group betting – Villa to win 1-0, 2-0 or 2-1 @ 3.75


Betfred £5 Pick Your Punt Refund
Nottm Forest v Derby
£5 FB Forest to win 1-0 @ 5/1

Derby have scored just 3 goals in 8 games this season, losing thier last two games 1-0.  Forest have won the last two head to heads 1-0 and although they have only scored three goals themselves, they have reason to look up with the appointment of Chris Hughton looking to have brought about improvement.


Skybet MBS Race 13:50 Cheltenham

£10 Midnight River @ 3.75


Paddypower MBS 14:40 Doncaster

£5 Tinto @ 9.0


Paddypower Power Price
RP Postcast Power Price (under specials)
£7.50 Doncaster, Getafe & Forest Green all to win @ 10.0


Skybet Priceboost

West Ham v Man City (12:30 Sat)
£10 Aguero 1+ shot on target


Pokerstars Requestabet Friday:

Qualifiers:

Manchester Utd – Chelsea (Sat, 17:30)
Request a Bet, Over 0.5 Goals in the 1st Half and Over 1.5 Goals in the 2nd Half
£5 @ 2.10

Borussia Dortmund – FC Schalke (Sat, 17:30)
Request a Bet, Borussia Dortmund to score over 0.5 goals in each half
£5  @ 1.57

FreeBet:
Liverpool v Sheff Utd (20:00 Sat)
Match Result and Both Teams to Score – Liverpool and No @ 2.20
Man Utd v Chelsea (17:30 Sat)
Man Utd @ 2.35

£5 FB double @ 5.17


Betfred Risk Free Pick Your Punt

How will Team Win?
£5 Aston Villa win to nil @ 3/1 – via pick your punt builder

Got two bets on my side Villa which is dangerous! However, their performances are backed up with solid reasons such as their Xg against averaging under 1.0 for around 10 games now and the improvement in the final third from Watkins, Grealish and Barkley, along with the return to form/fitness of McGinn.


Acca Insurance Five fold Paddypower or BetVic

Atalanta v Sampdoria (14:00 Sat)
Atalanta @ 1.40
Liverpool v Sheff Utd (20:00 Sat)
Liverpool @ 1.22
Dortmund v Schalke (17:30 Sat)
Dortmund and over 1.5 @ 1.29*
Barcelona v Real Madrid (15:00 Sat)
Barcelona @ 2.0
Burnley v Tottenham (20:00 Mon)
Tottenham @ 1.57

£10 five fold with Paddypower @ 6.91

Or if you cant bet with Paddys, replace Dortmund and over 1.5 with Dortmund in the match odds @ 1.2 with BetVic and it will qualify for Acca insurance there too.

Tuesday 20th October

I’m a bit pushed for time today as got a hospital appointment with my wife which will take up most of the day.
Therefore I will post the offers only for now with bets later on if time allows.


Betfair Exchnage £5 Betstreak
TBA – Weds


Bet365 (bet £50) get up to £50 free inplay

 

Qualifier:
Based on £25 FB, over 2.5 goals @ 1.44/1.5 : https://nimb.ws/VmyGoL

FreeBet
Have got back late today so am just going to take the money with this one, will post a back n lay at HT.


Skybet Priceboost

£10 Barcelona, Dortmund and PSG all to win @ 9/2
I’m only really concerned about Dortmund in this one, if you’re thinking of laying it to take a guaranteed profit that is an option – but bear in mind Smarkets are “currently experiencing issues with accumulators, “, at the time of writing.

Skybet Bet £5 get £5 (opt in required)

Suggest backing over 3.5 or BTTS Yes for £5 (if over 1.5) at kick-off then immediately laying on Smarkets/Betfair.
I will post my qualifier on twitter.

Freebet
Advice at HT


Betfred Bet £10 (inplay) get £5

Qualifier:
Will tweet qualifier at HT, kick offs are at 17:55 and 20:00

Freebet advice:
Weds


Unibet Bet £10 (Betbuilder) get £5 (inplay)

Qualifier:
As usual with this one the best bet for a qualifier is Draw and BTTS via the Betbuilder which can be laid on Smarkets, at the moment the game with the most liquidity is PSG/ManUtd and this is 5.1 to back 6.4 to lay, I will try and place a qualifier closer to the kick off.

FreeBet:
Follow my twitter later for advice on this one